Topica Loopframe_Guzzi Archive
 

Subject: Re: Oil Filter for a loop

Author: Skip & Jane

Date: Jan 13, 2005, 2:19 PM

Post ID: 1718205758


If some one could find a similar style filter the size of the oil screen, I
am sure it would not be to hard to modify the screen mount to hold the
filter. If the filter was a little longer, you could use a sump spacer to
give it the extra room.

The only other way I could think of is using a remote mount oil filter and
tap it into the oil feed to the heads. They make some nice small oil filter
kits for brit bike you could hide it. I think the main thing is to try and
filter the feed side of the oil system

Here is a nice one with a oil pressure switch on top
http://www.techeng.force9.co.uk/oil%20filter.html



----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Bender" <gr-@thisoldtractor.com>
To: <Loopfram-@topica.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 9:46 AM
Subject: RE: Oil Filter for a loop


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Hi Skip,

I think it's very doable. But, since Patrick brought up the excellent
point of needing a bypass valve, I'd like to get that figured out. If I
can, I will definitely try it on my Ambassador. I called Dave Quinn this
morning and spoke with him about his T140 oil filter kit (he was very
polite and helpful, btw). His is a suction system, as the proposed one
for our would be, too. He does not have a bypass valve. Instead, he has
chosen a filter with a great deal of surface area. I was hoping he had
solved the bypass valve issue, but it's at least nice to hear that
someone is having good luck with a non-bypass valve system.

karl von kologiski wrote:
 
On the old oil in frame triumph's & BSA's They have made a kit that
replaces the old screen. All they did was take the oil tank cover place
and install a stud for the oil filter to sit on. Then a cap and bolt
holds the filter in place. I am sure their is some open style oil
filter out there that is close to the diamentions of the Guzzi screen.
Add a couple of studs on the screen mount and sandwich the filter
between the cap. Here is a link to what I am trying to discribe.

Half way down the page
http://www.davequinnmotorcycles.com/cgi-bin/webc/Parts.html?sid=3gS8mU1EJ5BH9gW-39105010569.29
 

What do ya think ? Doable ?


-----Original Message-----
From: Greg Bender <gr-@thisoldtractor.com>
Sent: Jan 12, 2005 1:38 PM
To: Loopfram-@topica.com
Subject: RE: Oil Filter for a loop

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I'm glad you are bringing up these issues, Patrick. It helps me - for
one - learn a lot. Thanks!

Hmmm...as I'm reading the text and looking at the diagrams in Guzziology

(section 5-11), it appears that filtered Guzzis work as follows (all
except those with external oil coolers):

1. Oil is picked up from the screen in the pan.
2. Oil is sucked into the oil pump.
3. Oil is pushed from the oil pump into the oil filter via the center
hole in the oil filter.
4. Oil goes from the ouside holes of the oil filter to various parts of
the engine.

It also appears that Guzzi's have a pressure relief valve through which
oil passes either before or after it has lubed the rear main and cam
bearings ('before' for filtered models, 'after' for non-filtered
models). The purpose of the pressure relief valve is to make sure the
oil pressure doesn't get too high, as would be the case with cold, thick

oil.

It doesn't appear that there is a oil bypass valve apart from whatever
is built into the filter. Is this really correct?

So...
If the stock design oil bypass valve occurs in the filter on the 'push'
side of the oil pump,

Then this new design would need to have the oil bypass valve in the
filter on the 'pull/suck' side of the oil pump.

It wouldn't seem to matter whether the oil pump is pulling or pushing
oil through the filter, but perhaps I'm missing something here.

In the end, careful planning would need to go into the design of this
new filter so it would suck oil through the filter under the appropriate

conditions, but then also bypass the filter when necessary. Perhaps the
specifics could be gleaned from studying the pressure under which the
UFI filter bypasses?

I haven't heard back from the folks in Germany who created this filter
system, but it would sure be nice to ask them some of these questions.


peha-@comcast.net wrote:
 
Greg: Most oil bypass valves are on the pressure side or downstream of
the pump. The bypass opens and oil flows to the engine without
filtration. At least you have oil. The device we are discussing has
the filter on the SUCTION side of the pump. I doubt there is any way to

create a bypass for filter clogging.

Mind you, this is all speculation. This guy designed it and it may
work, provided you keep the oil and filter changed religiously. I have
no direct information. I only wonder about the design.

Patrick


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Hi Patrick,

Good thoughts you have here. If I'm understanding you correctly, you
see
 
 
 

the main problem with this unit as the lack of an oil bypass. That is
problematic and something that would need to be addressed as the
engine
 
 
 cannot be starved of oil.

But I'm still interested in this overall design because it would be
very
 
 
 

easy to install and wouldn't require new front main bearings or a
different oil pan, plus all the machining that needs to be done with
Dave Richardson's approach. If an engine were disassembled, Dave's
approach would probably be the preferred one. But on an assembled and
running engine, it would be nice to have a bolt on fix.

I'm not sure which type of oil (dyno or synthetic) he recommends nor
the
 
 
 

change interval. If an oil bypass was installed, then I don't think it
would matter which type of oil was used. Without an oil bypass,
however,
 
 
 

I would think that synthetic would be preferred simply because it is
thinner when cold and would probably pass through the filter medium
better. As for change interval, I *think* the first filtered models
recommended 3,000 mile oil changes and 9,000 mile filter changes
(every
 
 
 third oil change). My 2000 Quota recommends synthetic oil and filter
change every 6,000 miles.

I think there is probably a range of acceptable miles for the
oil/filter
 
 
 

changes. I personally like the 6,000 mile interval because it is easy
for me to remember when to change all my fluids (engine, trans, rear
drive)...but there is nothing scientific about that.

Without having the part in hand, it's difficult to know how it might
be
 
 
 altered to provide an oil bypass. If I understand the Guzzi system,
bypass is provided by a spring inside the UFI filter. If I'm wrong,
somebody please correct me. If that's the case, then perhaps the
center
 
 
 bolt that holds the filter on might be designed and machined in such a
way as to provide a spring loaded oil bypass system.

Of course, this all requires designing, machining, and measuring
capabilities that my garage does not have. But, in my opinion, it's an
intriguing idea that holds definite promise.

Patrick Hayes wrote:
 


Greg Bender wrote:
 where they have apparently made an adapter to allow the use of a
non-canister/exposed type oil filter inside the oil pan. This
seems very
 
 
 
 
 


attractive for obvious reasons (longer between oil changes,
maintain
 
 
 
 
A regular cartridge oil filtration system generally has some sort of
pressure sensing bypass designed in. Either in the filter itself or
in
 
 
 
 the oil pump and passages. If the oil is too thick, too cold or the
filter is too dirty, the oil supply bypasses the filter and
continues to
 
 
 
 


lubricate vital parts.

The filter proposed here has no such bypass. If you leave it for
"longer duration between changes", you risk having the filter medium
blocked up and the engine starved for oil. How many old loops went
hundreds of thousands of miles without anything but a bug screen to
filter oil? Sounds maybe risky and at least debatable. Wonder how
long
 
 
 
 


he is recommending exchange intervals? And if he is using Dyno or
Synthetic oils?

When Guzzi first came out with the in-pan filter on Tonti frames, I
knew
 
 
 
 


a guy who had moved up from a loop. He decided the filter exchange
was
 
 
 
 a hassle. He removed one, blew out its guts, and re-installed the
cartridge shell so that it would work like his reliable old loop had
done.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA



Regards,

Greg Bender
1971 Ambassador
2000 Quota
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/gtbender

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Regards,

Greg Bender
1971 Ambassador
2000 Quota
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/gtbender

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Regards,

Greg Bender
1971 Ambassador
2000 Quota
http://www.thisoldtractor.com/gtbender

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