Moto Guzzi's stelnumre - er din cykel hvad du tror den er ?

Frame # list

Gregory Bender added: I am *NOT* an expert in Moto Guzzi frame and engine numbers. These frame numbers are *NOT* 100% correct, particularly for models delivered outside of Italy and especially for models delivered outside of Europe. The two-letter engine prefix *should* be accurate and correct, but the numbers may not be correct for your Moto Guzzi. I highly recommend that you contact the factory directly with any questions regarding the validity of your frame and engine numbers. Please do not contact me as I will be unable to assist.

Andy Bucket sent me an email informing me of another really good list of frame numbers that differs from this list. I strongly encourage you to review the frame numbers presented by the Moto Guzzi Club Nederland.

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Early Le Mans (1) information

[Added by Gregory Bender on Jul 25, 2020] Thanks to Frank Butaric for sending this information via email. In Frank's own words:

Just purchased a 76 series one from the original owner. According to him it was one of the first 50 shipped to the US. Since we have mutual friends his story checks out. This bike has some differences from the other series ones like the wheels and bodywork. The bodywork is fiberglass: fairing and fenders. The VIN number does not start with a 1 but a VE70832 on the engine and just the number on frame.

[Added by Gregory Bender on May 27, 2021] Thanks to Brad Bellows for sending this information via email. In Brad's own words:

I purchased my 1978 Le Mans Mk1 39 years ago in Boston, serial number "VE*074281*" stamped on the engine case and 074281 on the head tube. The VE prefix is consistent with your information for a LM1, but the number is way out of range. I was interested to see the note from Frank Butaric about the serial number of his 1976 LM 1, which like mine, has the VE prefix and a number in the 70,000 range. He stated that it was one of the first 50 shipped to the US... with fiberglass fairing and fenders. The VIN number does not start with a 1 but a VE70832 on the engine and just the number on frame.

This is very similar to my bike, which was manufactured in OCT 1977, and like Frank's has the fiberglass fairing and side covers. Frank states that his bike was one of the first 50 imported. My serial number, almost two years later, is 3,449 units after Frank's early 1976 model, which seems reasonable.

Another Le Mans I owner, Alberto dell'Orto, reports a frame number in the 70,000 range (VE15688 - engine 77584) - not sure why the numbers don't match.

Is it possible that the factory used a different numbering system for bikes exported to North America, perhaps to simplify regulatory compliance?

...and one more North American LM1 with an engine number in the 70,000's - John Thompson in Canada reports on your site that his LM1 engine no. is VE75034, built in Dec. 1977, two months after mine, with an engine number 753 units later, which seems like a plausible production rate.

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Hint: are you looking at a LM1-2 or a T-T3 engine ?

On the round fin engines its easy to check if the cylinder heads installed on the bike actually are the Le Mans type with the bigger valves:

Le Mans cylinder heads have the inlet manifolds attached by 6mm bolts, on a small valve cylinder head the manifold is attached by 8mm bolts.

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The LM1-LM2 change mystery!

The official frame # list states that the change from Le Mans 1 to Le Mans 2 happened at frame # VE 13040.

This has always been doubtful, because considering the production years of the LM1 and LM2, and the factory's production capacity, it simply must be wrong.

The following was seen on: http://www.motorold.it/storia/telaiguzzi/1954.htm:

I dati dei Modelli Le Mans sono stati aggiornati e corretti grazie al prezioso contributo di Fabrizio Angelelli che ha trovato delle incongruenze con i dati distribuiti ufficialmente e ha permesso di risolvere questo errore di segnalazione rilevato dalla stessa casa del Mandello

850 Le Mans (1976-1978)

dal telaio VE 11111 al telaio VE 17311

( dati errati dal telaio VE 11111 al telaio VE 13040)

850 Le Mans II (1978-1980)

dal telaio VE 17312 al telaio VE 24788

( dati errati dal telaio VE 13041 al telaio VE 24086)

With a little imagination you can guess the meaning of this, but to be sure I asked Mikkel Hollænder to have a look at it. (He has a University degree in Spanish, which should make him a lot better in Italian language than we, the poor mortals, that only know Danish, English and German)

Mikkel gave the text to a Professor in Italian language (who loves Opera), and he came out with this:

The information on the Le Mans models has been updated and corrected, thanks to the valuable help of Fabrizio Angeleli, who found errors in the official distributed information.

This made it possible to correct the frame number error, that has been mentioned by the factory itself.

So the frame # list is corrected till somebody prove it wrong.

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The LM1-LM2 change mystery continued

John Thompson in Canada mailed me this input:

Hi Jens Was just going over your info on LM11 frames. Thought you might be interested in mine which throws a spanner in the number works. Mine is a "78 manufactured in December 1977, ( reason I know this is when I emigrated to Canada from GB I needed something from the factory stating it met Canadian manufacture requirements as at the time it was under 15 years old. ) anyway having digressed, my frame no. is VE 15993 & engine no. is VE75034. Mine ,I guess is one of the first LM11's so it might help find the "proper" frame start number. Oh yes mine also has chrome bores from new & a different link brake splitter from any others I have seen just to make it a little more interesting. Adding to the confusion! Cheers John T

Things are getting weirder day by day!

Noel Cockfield emailed Gregory Bender this input on Mar 28, 2012:

Very minor point but…

I have owned one of the last Le Mans Mk II's sold in the UK from new, purchased in October 1981. The frame # is VE24443, which is higher than the usually quoted upper limit for the Le Mans Mk II range of VE24086.

Rgds. Noel

Ed Morris (Melbourne, Australia) emailed Gregory Bender this input on Apr 02, 2012:

I have a Moto Guzzi Le Mans Mk II British Special (black & gold) with frame number VE*24446*, which is 360 later than the last recorded on your site.

Martin Penk (United Kingdom) emailed Gregory Bender this input on Jan 04, 2015:

I have an original Mk2 Black and Gold with frame no' 24458 just slightly later than one of your other respondents. Engine number 83668 all ties up with registration docs. First registered in the UK in August 1982.

Black and gold Le Mans II owned by Martin Penk.

Black and gold Le Mans II owned by Martin Penk.

Alberto Dell'Orto (Italy) emailed Gregory Bender this input on Jan 04, 2015:

My information about the mistake in frame Le Mans (1) end number is that the 13040 (others say Oct 21, 1976 on 13070) is the last first version bike, with round tail light, one and a half seat and front fiberglass mudguard.

Anyway there are several other modifications that I've found, I list them below, with date and frame number:

Date	Frame number	Description of change
Mar 05, 1976	11581	throttle black chrome
Jun 04, 1976	11645	front wheel reinforced
Aug 04, 1976	11715	change dashboard (?)
Sep 24, 1976	11888	new front left caliper (?), decal on brake calipers
May 20, 1976	11948	new fork shim
Jun 14, 1976	12172	transmission double joint
Jun 24, 1976	12046	rear shocks springs
Jun 26, 1976	12124	clutch (?)
Jul 29, 1976	12500	10,000 RPM tachometer and trip counter on speedo
Jul 27, 1976	12420	exhaust pipe with reinforcement
Jul 27, 1976	12505	new saddle pad, handle Germany version
Nov 02, 1976	13214	carburetors with reinforced springs
Jan 10, 1977	13686	self blocking nuts for discs
Mar 28, 1977	14301	new rod, lever and spring rear brake master cylinder
Apr 14, 1977	14414	black galvanized or plastified parts instead of painted
Aug 09, 1977	15318	140 main jet, new warning lights (like 850 T3?)
Sep 27, 1977	15445	new tank taps
Jan 02, 1978	16307	new swingarm boot
Feb 16, 1978	16379	1000 SP like gear and brake levers
Mar 07, 1978	16633	black plastic springs dampers
Apr 03, 1978	16749	protection of starter
Nov 27, 1978	17684	new type warning lights and handlebar electric controls (England)
Dec 12, 1978	(?)	production change to Le Mans II

Alberto Dell'Orto (Italy) emailed Gregory Bender some additional input on Jan 05, 2015:

I've just read John Thompson's question about his supposed 15993 Le Mans II built in Dec 1977.

My Le Mans (I) was built just 300 frames earlier (VE15688 - engine 77584) and was registered Jan 1978.

Reading the list I sent you, which comes from the personal archive of the painting sector manager (so I assume it to be precise) I think that, given the frame 15445 in the end of September and the frame 16307 just at the beginning of January and considered the Christmas and New Year's Eve holydays, even if built early in December that bike would mean that Guzzi made less than 450 bikes in over two months and then more than 300 bikes in just 20 days…. Very difficult, especially in a very hot period when strikes were frequent.

This conviction is more solid considering that I asked Guzzi a few years ago the origin certificate to be allowed to register a bike with no documents, frame number 13732, and they asked me to help them (!) looking if there's any indication on the frame, because our registers have a black hole between the end of the 1976 and the first part of the 1977. The homologation tab told us it was a 1977 bike.

All this just to say that the registers are probably a mix of dates, communicated by different sectors of the factory (production, shipments…) and that a bike could maybe be formally ready but immediately put in the assistance sector to fix some error in assembly or any other problem like for example the nylon pigmented front mudguards, that always arrived in the wrong colour…

Typical Italian, especially then!

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The mystery of the US V7 Sports

Steve Farris in the USA have dug out this valuable information:

Jens, I just received this response to my query from Moe at Cycle Garden: Steve, all US export Sports came with serial #'s starting with 31000 31000 for 1971 production 32000 for 1972 production 33000 for 1973 production 34000 for 1974 production. The prototype sports, the first 150 had a red frame and green tank, but I don't know the series #s on those.

Steve

And this one:

Jens, I thought I would update you on what I have found out about V7 Sport production numbers. This is my understanding the situation. When originally built all V7 Sport's had frame numbers stamped in the frame head tube, starting at 11111, which had engine number 30001, the highest known (to me) V7 Sport frame number is 14252 with engine #VK33853. The highest known VK engine number was found on a V7 Sport in the US, #VK34167. This gives a total of about 3142 V7 Sport frames and 4167 engines. The higher number of engines can be accounted for by the fact that in any model, due to replacements, racing needs, warranty, etc., engine production usually outpaces frame production. This difference in engine and frame production was made greater by the fact that the final year of production for the V7 Sport, the S2 model which replaced it used the same engine and thus shared the production until replaced by the 850 engines used in the S3. Local authorities in the USA desired that the frame and engine numbers match, so V7's exported to the US had a tag affixed to the frame's head tube, covering up the stamped number and using a frame number which corresponded to the engine number ( i.e. my V7 had engine number VK31082 so it was given frame number 31082 upon being shipped to the US). By calculating the engine numbers beginning with 30001 the original frame number on my V7 was somewhere around 12192, although this could only be verified by removing the frame tag and checking underneath. Due to the fact that more engines than frames were produced it is unlikely to match exactly. On many models which were destined to be US import bikes the original frame number was never stamped on the head tube, only the metal plate with the US frame number. On most US V7 Sport's the only way to tell is to remove the frame plate to look underneath. In many States removal of this plate is considered a criminal offense, so most people don't bother checking. If I ever have the frame re-finished I will remove the tag and look beneath for any signs of the original number. This frame production number is not to be confused with the factory "homologation" number of DGM 9104 OM which is stamped on the head tube of all V7 Sport's to identify the type of the frame. Steve

Excellent, isn't it ?

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V7Sport, 750S, 750S3

Rolf Halvorsen:

Hello Jens I may have some useful information for you: A friend of mine, Axel in France, has collected the frame and motornumbers for the V7 Sport / 750S / and 750 S3 models. This is the result until now: V7 Sport "Telaio Rosso" VK 11111 - 11261 (150 units) "This is disputed. Some say that the quantity should be 200, even 300." The V7 Sport VK 11111 - 14252 "Be aware that the bikes imported to US had the motor number (VK 30001 - VK 034167) as official frame number." 750S VK1 11111 - 12184 "None was official imported to US." 750S VK2 15000 - 15925 "None was official imported to US." Rolf

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V7Sport - Continued

Ernst Papousek:

Hello Jens I am the owner of a V7Sport with frame Nr VK 14077. This number is not included in your list. The year on the identification plate at the steering head is 1973. According "Motociclismo d'Epoca" there had been built approx. 3500 V7Sports from 71 to 74. The bikes sold in 1974 should have been built at the end of 1973. If you need more info, I could try to find the above mentioned revue and make a copy of the article for you. Ernst "Motoguzznix" Papousek

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T5

Pat Mulloy:

Hi Jens, I have 2 USA version T-5's and my frame numbers are: VR 100023 (engine number VR 012854) VR 100027 (engine number VR 012737) Both are originals and have not had engine swaps. Thanks for the effort,

Pat Mulloy

This is probably going to be a life long quest for the truth............

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