Subject: RE: Starter problem still....
Author: Lannis
Date: Apr 7, 2005, 4:42 PM
Post ID: 1718666904
Wow, Patrick, if I can't find the answer in there somewhere, then I'd
better turn in my metric wrenches and give up. Thanks!
Now that you mention the solenoid cap gasket, I have a sneaking
suspicion that I did not put a gasket back in there when I was
reassembling the solenoid after replacing the big contacts. I will
check that first, then look at tooth wear. Nothing else on this bike is
worn out ('cept the clutch acting up) so I'll be surprised if those
teeth are shot after only 35,000 miles....
That'll be next week, though. My wife and I are Centauro'ing over to
the coast tomorrow to spend the weekend and to confer, converse, and
otherwise hobnob with my brother Centauro owners, who are gathering from
all over the East Coast just to say hi and see who those guys are on the
other side of the keyboard...
Lannis
Patrick Hayes wrote:
Greg Bender wrote: a longer throw (or, more precisely, a more foward pushing throw). But,
Lannis: I think I'm with Greg on this. And continuing your symptom will only make matters worse. Look at how the system operates. It must be a clear, two-step process. When you hit the button, the relay and then the solenoid get energized. The solenoid pulls its core inward, which pushes the starter gear forward through a pivot lever. The starter motor is not yet energized and does not yet spin. As the pinion gear moves forward, the forward edge of its teeth are supposed to impact against the rear edge of the ring gear teeth. Both sets of teeth should be angled or tapered in some way to discourage a direct, face-to-face tooth hit. At the point of impact, the pinion should be forced to rock one way or the other to slide between mating ring gear teeth. As the teeth fully mesh and engage, the huge contacts down at the back end of the solenoid inside its cap come into play. When these contacts hit, the starter windings themselves become energized and the motor starts to spin. So, you have one of two problems. First, is there some reason that the gear teeth do not embed? Has this error caused the teeth to grind against each other, square off, and exacerbate face-to-face locking? Can you get at the damaged teeth with a dremel grinder and restore a pointed face condition? Second, is the starter being energized to spin before the gears are meshed? This is my suspicion. And here again we have two potential problems. Somehow the starter is getting juice before the gears are meshed. First, has there been enough wear to the pivot and the various mechanical points of the lever system so that it is not pushing the pinion gear as far forward as it used to? Not sure how to repair that, but you could remove the lever and have a little weld dab added to it to restore original thrust dimension. Second, has someone repaired, cleaned or replaced this solenoid? Was an alternate substitute solenoid used? If it is the original solenoid, and it was cleaned or repaired, was the original cap gasket saved or reproduced? The physical position of the solenoid rear cap (and thus its internal contacts) are critical to the design of this system. If you move the cap slightly forward (by omitting the cap gasket) you allow the starter contacts to come into play before the plunger thrust is complete. If you use an alternate solenoid, the dimensions for thrust and contact may not be completely accurate. I would suggest a thorough tooth inspection and some lubrication of the pinion shaft to get the gear sliding easier. You can run the solenoid repeatedly on the floor with some test wire and observe its action. Just be sure to disconnect the heavy starter lead so you don't energize that spin or the motor with jump all over the place. I would suggest a removal and very thorough inspection of the pivot system and the fork face of the pivot against the pinion gear. Is there some substantial wear and can it be improved or corrected? I would suggest disassembly of the solenoid and the addition of a double or triple thick gasket between the end cap and the solenoid body. By adding gasket thickness here, you are moving the motor contacts aft and delaying the instant point of energizing the starter. The plunger has to go deeper before it makes the motor spin. Perhaps by stacking gaskets, you can delay it long enough to get deeper tooth penetration before spin. At any rate, what you have now is a rotary grinder and you are damaging the face of the pinion and ring teeth. By doing so, you are making the gear contact position worse as it respects the internal solenoid contact position. You have to get tooth penetration BEFORE spin. Doing the gasket stack might be enough to counteract the tooth wear already in place. One last thought. You might ignore ALL of the above and just inspect the wiring at the starter and solenoid. You maybe haven't done something to short this wiring in some way, or hooked it up incorrectly so that the thrust action and the spin action are happening simultaneously? That would be a case for failure for sure. You have to separate these two functions in time and space. The starter relay ONLY energizes the solenoid. It is the action of the solenoid which energizes the starter windings. I'm trying to imagine how you could hook up contacts incorrectly to get the motor spinning by the relay circuit rather than by the solenoid circuit. Could happen I suppose. Patrick Hayes Fremont CA |