Moto Guzzi V700, V7 Special, Ambassador, 850 GT, Eldorado, 850 California
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Moto Guzzi V700, V7 Special, Ambassador, 850 GT, Eldorado, 850 California - Forks
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Table of contents
- Fork lock pieces and parts
- Fork lock removal
- Fork rebuilding
- Fork seal carrier leaks/spinning at crimped area
- Fork seal cross-references
- Fork spring data
- Fork spring holder/fork seal carrier depth
- O-ring for the fork top plug (90706222)
- Steering damper kit
- Steering damper kit with leg shields
- Steering damper replacement
- Steering dampers, aluminum spacer blocks, fork travel, and fender dents
- Steering head bearing cross-references
- Steering head travel side to side (how to limit)
Fork lock pieces and parts
Updated: Nov 01, 2009
I extracted this information from Marty and Charlie Mullendore of Antietam Classic Cycle on the Yahoo! Loopframe_Guzzi news group.
I called Bob's BMW last Saturday morning and ordered-up the BMW fork lock, and it is the same Niemann part, complete with a pair of keys. There are 2 small differences to the Guzzi part; 1) the Guzzi part has a spring around the lock pin, which the new part doesn't, so just swap it over, and 2) the Guzzi lock is ground flat on both sides of the business end of the pin so the end of the pin is about 7 mm wide, but the BMW part is a straight cylinder. I realize now that this relief is so the pin can engage the keyway that's ground in the steering tube, doing the locking, so there's a little grinding to do.
BMW part numbers and prices are as follows (Marty ordered these parts from Bob's BMW; Bench Mark Works also sells them). Part numbers:
- Lock and 2 keys: 51 25 1 243 274
- Fork cover rivet: 07 11 9 944 651
- Spring washer for the rivet: 07 11 9 932 100
- Chrome cover with rivet and washer: 32 32 9 016 101
Robert F. Greene also sent me a source via email:
Until recently, I did not realize that the fork lock and tool boxes on Eldos were keyed the same. Unfortunately, not only was I lacking an original Neiman key, but the tool box locks were non-original and missing their non-original keys as well. After some poking around, I found a genuine Neiman replacement fork lock WITH correct oval cover, 2 keys and even the rivit for the oval cover. The name of the vendor is Bevel Heaven.
Fork Lock kit from Bevel Heaven
Fork lock removal
Updated: Prior to Dec 11, 2007
- Use a small screwdriver to pry the chrome cover pin out. Try to pry behind the cover so as not to damage the front.
- If you have the key, you can just insert the key, turn it, and withdraw the lock.
- If you do not have the key, you have a choice to make…
- Drill it out and replace it with a new one. If you choose this method, be sure you remove the steering head bearings beforehand.
- Take it to a locksmith, have them pick it and withdraw it and then have them make a key for it.
Fork rebuilding
Updated: Jul 30, 2009
Fork removal
- Jack up the front end of the motorcycle.
- Remove the front wheel.
- Remove both front fender stays and the front fender.
- Place a container under both fork legs and remove the drain plugs. If nothing comes out, you may need to push a small pick in there to dislodge the sludge.
- Remove the four allen-head bolts that secure the dash to the top triple tree plate. Depending on how much slack there is in the wires, you may be able to position the dash out of the way. Best to wrap it in a towel to protect it or what it rests on. If there is insufficient slack in the wires, document where each one connects and remove them. Be careful, some of the wires that connect to the ignition switch are hot! In doubt? Disconnect the battery ground wire.
- Loosen the 36 mm plug on the top of each fork tube.
- Unscrew it about 3 turns, but no more. We want to keep most of the plug threads engaged.
- Loosen the 12 mm pinch bolt (using a 19 mm wrench) on the lower triple tree plate for both fork legs.
- Using a great walloping dead-blow hammer (rubber or plastic), give the top 36 mm plugs a really good hard wack. Don't have a dead blow hammer? Use a block of wood to protect the plug and hit it with a small sledge. The fork tube should move and drop down. If it doesn't, hit it again. If a few hits don't dislodge it, CAREFULLY drive a chisel in the slot in the bottom triple tree plate near the pinch bolt. The chisel will serve to open up the bottom triple tree plate just a bit and should ease removal.
- Remove the 36 mm plug and withdraw the fork leg.
- You may wish to remove the fork shroud, but there is no need to do so. Just make sure it doesn't come loose and make some horrific paint-scratching, multi-dent sound as it bounces onto the garage floor.
Fork disassembly
- Remove the o-ring from the 36 mm fork plug.
- Remove the spring from the fork.
- Thoroughly clean the top of the fork tube (the part that is always above the fork seal). Thoroughly degrease and remove any surface rust with 0000 steel wool or a 3M pad. Do not use 0000 steel wool or 3M pads on the portion of the leg that goes past the seal. That part of the leg should not need cleaning and I'd protect it using masking tape or similar.
- Using a fork collar removal tool, remove the chrome fork collar. My tool does not have handles, so I mount the tool in my bench vice, fit the fork leg to the tool, and then use and axle or similar prying device to turn the fork lower using the axle hole for leverage.
- Slide the fork collar off the fork tube.
- Using a punch, drive the seal out the bottom of the fork collar.
- Clamp the fork lower upright in a vice. I use two pieces of wood to protect the fork lower and clamp the flat area where the axle goes through.
- Remove the o-ring from the outside of the threads.
- Carefully examine the threads in search of a tiny hole.
- Put on your safety glasses.
- Use a small pick to push inward through the hole and push the inner retaining ring out of place. When you see the inner retaining ring move over, place the tip of a small screwdriver in there and pry it out of position. Note, this task is much easier if the end of the retaining ring is near the tiny hole. You may need to rotate the position of the ring using a small punch, etc.
- Remove your safety glasses.
- Pull up on the fork tube and remove it from the fork lower. The slider and shims will come along with it.
- Once again ensure that the top of the fork tube is clean, we don't want to score the slider.
- Remove the slider and shims. Keep track of which shims and sliders go with each fork tube and fork lower. Don't swap around pieces and parts.
- OPTIONAL - Inspect the lower fork bushing. If it is excessively worn or beat up, it'll need to be replaced. You'll also need a special tool to remove it.
Clean clean clean
- Clean *ALL* the parts thoroughly with degreaser.
- Cleaning the inside of the fork tube and fork lower is the most difficult. I have shotgun/rifle cleaning brushes on long wires that I use.
- I inspect the inside with flashlight or good sunlight to see if I've gotten the insides clean enough.
- It can take a while to really get the insides clean. But, it is important to do so as the damping is solely dependent upon fluid flow from the fork lower into the fork tube (and back again). Any foreign material can block passages or prevent proper flow.
Inspection
Inspect all the parts for wear. Any original forks will show some wear after 30+ years of use or neglect. But, don't get carried away worrying about every little possible defect. Here are the big things to worry about:
- Is the fork tube bent? Pitch it or have it straightened. Probably cheaper to buy new, though.
- Does the fork tube show any signs of pitting or a great deal of wear from rubbing on the slider? If so, it is certainly a candidate for replacement. Why? Well, pits will leak oil and probably damage the new seal. Too much wear from rubbing on the sliders may lead to leaks, but more importantly will allow the fork tubes to slide up and down at an angle not parallel to the fork lowers…not good. Pitting would bother me quite a bit, but these forks are so rudimentary that a little extra wear doesn't seem to make that big of a difference.
- Likewise check the sliders for excessive wear or corrosion.
Fork assembly
- OPTIONAL - If you are replacing the lower fork bushing, do so now.
- Lubricate the fork tube with some fork oil.
- Slide the slider down over the fork tube along with the associated shims.
- Lubricate the outside of the slider with some fork oil.
- Insert the slider/fork tube into the fork lower.
- Fit the retaining ring into place. I always try to place one end of the ring near the hole in the threads for easier remove the next time around.
- Lubricate the fork collar o-ring with some fork oil and install on the fork lower.
- Install a new seal in the fork collar.
- Lubricate the threads on the fork leg with some anti-seize.
- Fit the fork collar to the fork lower and tighten with the special tool.
- Lubricate the exposed portion of the upper fork tube with axle grease…no need to go below where the seal is.
- Lubricate the spring with axle grease and fit over the fork tube. Yep, it is messy but it is necessary to avoid rust and corrosion.
- Lubricate the o-ring for the 36 mm fork plug with some fork oil and fit to the fork plug.
Fork fitting
- Slide the fork leg up through the lower and upper triple tree plates. I have the special fork puller tool that I fit in place, which is a big aid to getting the fork tube pulled up fully into position.
- Fit the 36 mm fork plug and tighten finger tight.
- Tighten the pinch bolt on the lower triple tree.
- Fit the drain plug in place with a new washer. I strongly prefer fiber washers in this application.
- Remove the fork plug and fill the tube with the required measured amount of fork oil.
- Fit the 36 mm fork plug back into place.
- Tighten the 36 mm fork plug.
- Loosen the pinch bolt on the lower triple tree.
- Repeat the previous 3 steps until the 36 mm fork plug is nice and tight.
- Refit the dash.
- Refit the front fender, complete with both fender braces.
- Refit the front wheel.
- Lower the front end of the motorcycle and remove the jack.
Fork seal carrier leaks/spinning at crimped area
Updated: Nov 21, 2008
I extracted this information from Mark Etheridge of Moto Guzzi Classics off of the Yahoo! Loopframe_Guzzi news group. In Mark's own words…
Have seen quite a few like this. I clean the inside out real good with carb cleaner, then high pressure blow it. Then I get heat gun and get collar real warm, then with a popscikle stick I put JB Weld down there. The heat helps it kind of flow a lot better. Never had one leak or spin after doing this.
And some more information from K. Ross Raymond, in his own words…
You seal from the spring cup side where you see the two parts come together, there is a crevice all the way around the ID of the spring cup that needs to be sealed.
Clean the inside of the cup thoroughly with solvent a few times, making sure the crevice is completely free of oil and grease. Then heat the assembly nice and warm so the JB Weld flows into the crevice. I applied it using a dental pick, working it all around the ID of the cup, slightly up the side and the floor of the cup also. No more leaks, and my first cup leaked so much that a small puddle formed on the garage floor.
It still makes no sense to me, but it works. This info was originally from Mark.
Fork seal cross-references
Updated: Prior to Dec 11, 2007
Two identical fork seals are used on the forks - one per fork tube (35 mm ID x 50 mm OD x 10 mm thick).
Fork spring data
Updated: Mar 27, 2010
I measured the following data on a set of new replacement springs that were intended to be identical to the original springs.
- The free length of the springs are 240 mm. This is the length of the spring before it is installed (i.e., holding it in your hand, completely off of the motorcycle).
- Once installed on the motorcycle, without any weight on the front wheel (front wheel off of the ground), the length of the spring is 226 mm. That is, the springs are preloaded 14 mm without any weight at all on the front wheel of the motorcycle.
- With just the weight of the motorcycle on the front wheel (front wheel on the ground, no rider weight), the length of the spring is 202 mm. That is, the springs are preloaded 38 mm with the weight of the motorcycle on the front wheel.
Fork spring holder/fork seal carrier depth
Updated: Mar 27, 2010
When I was measuring fork springs, I found it necessary to know the exact depth of the chrome fork spring holder/fork seal carrier. That is, the distance from the top of the fork spring holder to the bottom, where the fork spring sits, is 82 mm.
O-ring for the fork top plug (MG# 90706222)
Updated: Jul 20, 2010
Thanks to Charles Hamer for sending me this information. In (mostly) Charles' own words…
I got some info concerning o-rings for the fork top plugs. It took me some time trying out a bunch of different sizes before finding a nice fit, the OEM o-ring comes straight from Italy but IMO does not provide a nice fit. It is almost unecessary because it is so sloppy. For some reason it might have been intended by Guzzi engineers, but to me it does not make sense. So I found some good alternative o-rings in metric sizes, they can be found at Advance Auto Parts or McMaster Carr.
Steering damper kit
Updated: Prior to Dec 11, 2007
Here is Joe Jump's bolt-on steering damper kit which he sells for USD $125.00. In Joe's own words:
It really is a nice working damper set-up. I used to experience a low frequency "wallow" at speeds above 65 MPH (bags and a Harley-type windshield) - now that's gone. The damper is a hydraulic unit with seven adjustment positions from off to very stiff - a quality built Japanese unit. As you can see from the "mounted" picture, I've oriented the unit across the centerline of the frame so that the adjustment easily accomplished underway with a gloved left hand. In my case I've set it two clicks up from off and leave it there - don't even notice it in town.
If you are interested, contact Joe directly at: jumpjg>at<hotmail.com
Steering damper kit with leg shields
Updated: May 05, 2008
Thanks to Frank Granli who sent this information to me in a private communication. In Franks's own words:
I also have installed a police fairing, leg shields and a Joe Jump steering damper and all of this goes together well. You will see from the pictures that only a single nut on each bolt was necessary to give room for the Joe Jump crash bar clamp.
Steering damper replacement
Updated: Apr 09, 2008
Joe Jump gave me the inspiration to do this based upon the experiences he shared on the Yahoo! Loopframe_Guzzi news group.
Steering dampers can be quite expensive…and finding the original Guzzi mounting brackets can be difficult. So, I used the following materials:
- One steering damper from MikesXS, item number 28-4008. This is the part that Joe Jump identified. 7 position adjustable in 20 pound force increments. The overall length from tip to tip is 270mm. The maximum stroke is 87mm. The stud is threaded for an 8 mm x 1.25 mm nut. The hole in the other end is sized to accept a 8 mm bolt.
- One 30 mm split collar from McMaster-Carr, item number 6063K22.
- A short length of 3/4" wide, 1/8" thick mild steel; bent in the vice to fit.
- A stainless steel flat washer and stainless steel lock nut to secure the steering damper to the split collar.
- A stock aluminum spacer block (alternatively, a 16 mm long aluminum spacer could be used), 55 mm long stainless steel hex-head bolt, two stainless steel flat washers, and one stainless steel lock nut to secure the steering damper to the bottom of the triple tree plate. Given the 8 mm hole in the steering damper, I secured the damper through the 8 mm threaded hole in the aluminum spacer block. I found this preferrable to sourcing an appropriately sized bushing and securing the steering damper to the 6 mm hole in the aluminum spacer block. I'm sure either method would work.
- Modified civilian turn signal brackets or police turn signal brackets. I made my own modified civilian turn signal brackets from a length of 3/16" x 1-1/4" 304 stainless steel bar. I chose to make my own out of stainless steel because it was cheaper than having my existing - already slightly bent - brackets re-chromed. Only the right bracket needs to be modified, but I created a pair so that they would match visually.
- Important Note: I originally used a 30 mm long aluminum spacer, 70 mm long stainless steel bolt, two stainless steel flat washers, and one stainless steel lock nut to secure the steering damper to the bottom of the triple tree plate. I did this so that the body of the steering damper would clear the civilian turn signal brackets that I have installed. Moving the steering damper that far down allowed it to come in contact with my fender and dent it. Be absolutely sure that you have a minium of 4.5" between the bottom of the steering damper (and all related hardware) and the top of the corresponding point on the fender. If there isn't, then there is a very real risk of denting the front fender.
A view of the entire set-up installed.
The bracket welded to the split collar.
The bracket welded to the split collar.
The bracket welded to the split collar.
The split collar installed.
This is how I secured the steering damper to the aluminum spacer block. Not stock…but works great.
A stainless steel nylon lock nut and flat washer secures the whole mess to the lower triple tree.
View from front…the bottom of the stock fairing extends lower than the bolt head. This is GOOD!
A good look at how I relieved a portion of the right turn signal bracket to clear the body of the steering damper.
The pair of stainless steel civilian turn signal brackets that I created.
The pair of stainless steel civilian turn signal brackets that I created.
Steering dampers, aluminum spacer blocks, fork travel, and fender dents
Updated: Prior to Dec 11, 2007
I met Kim Schick at the 2006 MGNOC national rally in Elkader, Iowa. We got to talking about steering dampers and I learned that Kim had cast a number of the special aluminum blocks for mounting the steering damper to the underside of the triple tree. First class work and Kim hooked me up with one (Thanks!).
After examining numerous loops using the stock steering damper set up, Kim and I found that most (all?) had some sort of fender dent from the head of the bolt contacting the top of the fender on full fork spring compression. It seems that even the stock configuration did not fully account for the issue of full spring compression. After further investigation, Kim found that the pocket recess in the lower triple tree for the aluminum spacer block is different between different models. Specifically, he found the following differences:
- MG# 12494200 Early V700 (found in first edition spare parts catalog only): Aluminum block is flush with the triple tree.
- MG# 12494201 Later V700, All Ambassador and All Eldorado (found in all other spare parts catalogs I have): Aluminum block is flush with the triple tree.
- MG# 12494070 Side car triple tree: Aluminum block protrudes from triple tree ~1/8".
After further contemplation, I decided to calculate the minimum space needed between the bottom of the lower triple tree and the top of the fender (thanks to Paul Linn for taking the time to measure the maximum fork travel on a set of uninstalled drum brake forks he had). Here is the math and logic I used…
- Total tube travel within each fork leg is 4.5" or 114.3 mm
- Part - but not all - of that total travel is taken up by the spring. The stock spring wire diameter is 5.76 mm and has 16 turns. When fully compressed, the spring would take up 92.16 mm of space (5.76 * 16 = 92.16)…or roughly 3.628". The Wirth progresively wound replacement spring has a wire diameter of 6 mm and approximately 14 turns, yielding 84 mm when fully compressed. Given that the spring can compress more than the total available travel, the spring will
- never completely compress or bottom out
- will never - in and of itself - prevent the fender from hitting the anything connected to the bottom of the lower triple tree
- That leaves 22.14 mm (or a little less than 1") of available free space. Were a person to install a preload spacer on top of the springs, 22mm would be the absolute maximum you would want to go…and that thick of a spacer would be very close to completely compressing the spring upon maximum fork travel. I don't have a preload spacer installed on my Ambassador. But if I ever do install one, I think I would limit it to about 10 mm.
The key point from all this math and logic is that there needs to be a minimum of 4.5" between the bottom of the triple tree and the top of the corresponding point on the fender. If there isn't, then there is a very real risk of denting the front fender.
It is easy to check your machine. Jack up the front end so that the front wheel is off the ground. This extends the front fork completely. Then, just measure between the triple tree and the fender. I checked mine and my steering damper bolt was about 4" from the fender…hence my dent.
The bottom line is that there are steps that must be taken any time a steering damper is added in order to avoid dents in the top of your fender. Here are a few suggestions:
- THE WRONG WAY: Install a preload spacer on top of each spring that takes up more than the available 22 mm of free space. Doing so will limit total travel. The downside is that there is a very real chance of the spring completely collapsing and binding. THIS IS BAD. DON'T DO IT.
- Modify the steering damper mount/bolt so that you have a minimum of 4.5" of space between it and the top of the fender. Here are some ideas…
- If you are using the stock aluminum spacer block and it protrudes below the pocket in the triple tree, file off the protruding portion to get the steering damper as snug to the triple tree as possible.
- Use a bolt with a low profile head to secure the steering damper to the aluminum block. Perhaps a button head bolt would work well.
Steering head bearing cross-references
Updated: Mar 06, 2008
Thanks to Bob Greene for providing key starting information for these cross-references.
The physical dimensions of the tapered roller bearings (MG# 92249225) are as follows:
- ID: 25 mm
- OD: 52 mm
- Width: 16.25 mm
Here are various cross-references:
- Maryland Metric item no. 30205
- FAG 30205A
- RIV 01/02/7205
- SKF 30205J2
- SNR 30205
- STEYR 30205
Steering head travel side to side (how to limit)
Updated: Mar 27, 2010
While I performed this modification on my Ambassador, I would never choose to do it again. I've since learned that the cause of the fairing hitting the tank was that I was using an original Moto Guzzi Polizia fairing for a V700 (with it's narrower tank). I should have sourced the proper Moto Guzzi Polizia fairing for later models with the wider tank. I'll leave the information here, but I wanted to clarify that I do not recommend this modification.
After installing the stock fairing, I noticed that when I turned the handlebar fully left or fully right, that the fairing would hit the tank - not good. This is not an issue while riding, but becomes annoying when maneuvering the bike around the garage, parking, etc.
I had initially thought about performing some surgery on the fairing, but I'm glad I didn't. Instead, I drilled and tapped the solid round bar welded to the front of the frame that serves to limit the steering travel side to side. A 13/64" drill and a 6 mm x 1 mm tap did the job just fine. A 6 mm x 1 mm x 8 mm bolt screwed in all the way works perfect.